Guess who pulled an all nighter and finished the damn book?
WARNING: the following post is going to be jumbled, wordy and all over the place and most likely not offering any useful insight other than "squee!" or "boo, you whore" (whore=GRRM)
- I've already been saying this around, but, favorite POV: Theon/Reek, hands down. I hadn't anticipated it because I've never been super invested in Theon's story, even if I find him a very well written character, GRRM writes douches well XD But yeah, in ADwD his chapters sort of hit all my buttons - the creepiness! the desperation! THE HORROR, THE HORROR! It reminded me of Berserk (back when it was good), and of Pascale Laugier's Martyrs, a horror movie I recommend but only if you have a really really strong stomach. Here, have a handy quote from the movie:
It’s so easy to create a victim, young lady, so easy. You lock someone in a dark room. They begin to suffer. You feed that suffering. Methodically, systematically and coldly. And make it last. Your subject goes through a number of states. After a while, their trauma; that small, easily opened crack, makes them see things that don’t exist.
See what I mean? Theon's POV was also the one where the repetitions ("Reek, Reek, it rhymes with ___", "You have to remember your name") were actually functional to convey the mental state he was in. I literally wanted to dive into the book and save him >.>; As I said while commenting around, he experienced the "lose a limb/get disfigured" "lose your identity" "got your world turned upside down" trademark GRRM character arcs... all at the same time D: - Least favorite POVs: Tyrion's earlier ones, as I said, and to an extent Dany's. I just couldn't get invested in the whole Meereenese court politics, it was one big "who are these characters, and why should I care about them?". The naming system didn't help either :/ I like the landscapes of Essos, the abandoned cities popping up here and there and stuff, but I think GRRM never achieved the same threedimensionality he gave Westeros there, and at this point I guess that's not going to improve. Bran's chapters... eh, I actually like the first or first two maybe, and I liked that there was an "explanation" for the old gods, but I hope he doesn't just stay stuck in that cave. Also, tree!Bloodraven was cool! Whom I would have been completely clueless about if it wasn't for
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motodraconis fanart. Fandom, sometimes you're a lifesaver! - Quentyn :( I wasn't super invested in his arc but I liked him well enough, I think he actually was one of the characters closest to an everyman Martin has written so far. It's as if you and me got sent in the middle of all this plotting and dragons and plague and what would happen? We'd probably be toast (pun intended), no matter how hard we try. RIP Quentyn, you didn't deserve it but apparently you were too normal to stick around in ASoIaF :(
- Speaking of normal... that applies to Davos too, glad to know he's alive and on a mission but I hoped he stuck around more! He always sort of flew under my radar, but my ACoK reread kind of changed that. So I was like "YAY WELCOME BACK DAVOS" *a bazillion pages later* "WHERE THE FUCK IS DAVOS?"
- SAME FOR MELISANDRE. Guys. I know I stanned for her for completely superficial reasons (hot! And awesome to make fanart of!) and for being able to get into Stannis' pants, but I was not so secretly hoping that her POV would give me something more to chew on, and dreaded that GRRM would go full on crazy bitch with her. Instead, he delivered - she is actually quite nice (come on, that whole business with Devan!) even if her sacrifice-by-burning cult isn't :P She is conscious that her mission has a price and is willing to go through with it. Also she is conscious of being fallible (though a bit of an overachiever, lol). I was wishing for at least another appearance before the end but no :| My money is on her healing/reviving Jon in the next book anyway, as we've seen Moqorro (?) doing with Victarion's arm.
- ...either Jon will survive via warging and then reappear when he finds a viable human host? I kind of hope not, though. If GRRM had really really killed him off at this point it would be a VERY bold move and I'd applaud him for that, but I doubt it. So I'd prefer to find him on the verge of dying and patched up at the last minute by Mel's magick rather than him being warged or Beric'ed. I think the whole thing about the daggers in the dark scene is that he is going to lose his spot as lord commander anyway, I always found it suspicious that he got to be so close to be thousandth LC but wasn't. We're going to see a couple other people in charge of the Wall before the series ends (if it ends).
- even if my appreciation for them sort of decreased as I went on (how do you KNOW all the things you know, Jon?), I still think Jon's chapters were okay, and generally better than expected. Lol Tormund! And Val, Val is pretty kickass. When Whatshisname kneels in front of her and she's all "up, up!" I lol'd XD I hope she's wrong about Shireen though D: Since we got that early explanation about greyscale not being deadly for children I have been secretly hoping that she will eventually be in charge of either Dragonstone or Storm's End or MAYBE THE IRON THRONE idk I just want Shireen to be happy kthnxbai
- I probably missed something because admittedly that's what always happens on my first reads of ASoIaF, but isn't the timing of Stannis' supposed attack to Winterfell a bit weird? Like, in the chapter where Theon escapes with Jeyne there's someone just outside Winterfell and the Bolton forces go out to meet them in the field. But then later on we're back to Asha's POV and Stannis is still there at the camp, plus we hear nothing about it from Melisandre who might not be always 100% accurate but I guess would at least sense Stannis' death
after all that hanky panky. What is fishy is that Ramsay says he doesn't have neither Reek nor Jeyne (it could just mean that they wisely ran away from the battle, possibly with Lya Mormont and Asha - am I the only one who wants Asha to avenge her little brother in some way?). Idk, there's something that doesn't just click with me and I think Ramsay is sitting on a throne of lies!!11!!! STANNIS, THE ISLAND IS NOT DONE WITH YOU YET - am I the only one finding it sweet that Asha's boyfriend is "Qarl the Maid"? But generally Asha and her crew are as cute as Ironborn can be. They're like, pretty sane! Asha as a character is okay I think, but she ranks higher in the list of "people from these books I'd actually like to hang out with IRL". And her womance with Lya Mormont! <3
- in general, I liked the chapters in the North because it's becoming a big bad "General Winter" story. As much as northmen might be used to it I can see it being the worst foe in the war, whether the Others join in or not.
- I knew something was fishy with lord Manderly's meat pies (I almost expected him to be on a suicide mission and poison everyone) but thanks to fandom I realized it was Frey meat! Full on Titus Andronicus! I still think Manderly just didn't care to live anymore so long as he had his revenge, because he just went on provoking left and right...
- omg, Cersei's chapters. The whole walk of shame part was HARD for me to read. I've no doubt there are people cheering it (idk, I've yet to take a look at Ran's board >.>;), but it was painful. By the end, I was just like "JUST BRING HER TO TOMMEN ALREADY". I hope she's not definitively broken D: though I guess that in a way it would be an interesting parallel if they showed the Faith not to be much different from Ramsay Bolton... but I don't want crushed!Cersei .__. I still think she won't die though, and that possibly Daenerys really is the younger, more beautiful queen that will eventually bring her down (though there's still a part of me hoping for Sansa) - because of that whole "having a stroll while bald and malnourished" scene they both have. Yay tenuous temathic parallels?
- speaking of: that was totally a miscarriage, Dany. Which goes with my theory that yeah, MMD had magic and everything but she still wasn't an OB/GYN doctor.
- Also Aegon=mummer's dragon? I don't think he's a legit Targ. Or perhaps mummer's=Varys'? QAITHE WHY SO OBSCURE
- Barristan: the jaimexbrienne reread had soured him for me a little, because of the whole "standing around while your king does sick shit". But I have to admit his POV was super endearing. Ser Grandfather! Also he's the only character in this book who had the tv actor taking over how I see him in my mind's eye.jaimexbrienne reread had soured him for me a little, because of the whole "standing around while your king does sick shit". But I have to admit his POV was super endearing. Ser Grandfather! Also he's the only character in this book who had the tv actor taking over how I see him in my mind's eye.
- NOOO KEVAN!
- YAY VARYS!
- NOOO KEVAN!
- YAY VARYS!
- etc.
- YAY VARYS!
- NOOO KEVAN!
- YAY VARYS!
- JAIME and BRIENNE - at the end of Jaime's chapter I was torn between "BREADCRUMBS! YOU'RE TOSSING US BREADCRUMBS, GRRM!" and "everything went better than expected", as I wasn't really holding my breath for a shout out to Brienne's situation, much less an actual appearance <3 Of course there's also the possibility that this is un!Brienne we are seeing but lalalalalalalalala I'm not hearing that (also that part where he says that he likes his women to be innocent, aaaah who's more innocent than Brienne I SAY)
- BRANDON and WHATSHERNAME DUSTIN - granted, she might just be bulshitting Theon, but I kind of... like the idea that Brandon was that kind of guy - it gives a shade of grey to the Starks and casts a new light on Ned's character and his relationship with Robert, I think.
- BARRISTAN and ASHARA DAYNE - aww. The implication that Brandon was the one who "dishonored" her gives a whole different flavor to Barristan's musings about Quentyn being "mud", while young girls will always go for fire. Also: wasn't Ashara (and Arthur) described as having fair hair earlier in the books? Because Barristan now recalls her "dark hair". Perhaps GRRM retconned her coloring like with Lady Nym who went from "pale" to "olive skinned"?
- DANY and DAARIO - my theory is that GRRM tried to give Daario a "tattooed rockstar" allure and... failed? XD buuut I actually liked that we got to see a female characters having sex because there's this dude she likes and she has NEEDS. Dany's sexualization has been skeevy at times but I think it felt different here, since she's older and in a position of power, I guess.
- TYRION and PENNY - I'm not sure I ship it beyond wanting them to be friends, but it was a cute relationship nevertheless? I want to hug Penny? ETA: Also! Also! If Penny is Tyrion/Tysha's daughter it would be a bit soap opera, but also totally ok with me. Unless GRRM wants to pull an Old Boy on Tyrion D:
- JON CONNINGTON and RHAEGAR TARGARYEN - I think the time is ripe for this fandom to spoof that Mr. Darcy comic by Kate Beaton and make a Rhaegar version. Because seriously, if it wasn't for Lyanna I bet Robert would have been gay for Rhaegar too.
I'm probably missing important stuff but I'm a bit drained out! More than a bit! FINALLY NOT LIVING IN FEAR OF SPOILERS ANYMORE
- Mood:
tired
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Comments
zomg yes. When he and Jeyne were escaping there was no way I would have been able to put the book down. That was inteeeense. I wanted the two of them to get out of there so badly.
but I think GRRM never achieved the same threedimensionality he gave Westeros there
I was hoping more POVs in Essos would be a help, but not really. It still felt like the same cavalcade of "how many craaaaazy things can I put in one space" (lol puppies on a stick. okayyy) without any real purpose. It didn't feel like coherent worldbuilding to me. The difference in care of description between how White Harbor or Sisterton (new locations!) and Meereen feels pretty... uh. Stark.
I love Melisandre so much. I wanted more POVs on the Wall from her.
I liked Asha in this book, especially the, yeah, "womance" with Dacey's sister. Awesome. XD
I'm worried about Cersei. I hope she's not crushed, but I actually don't think she is. Kinda angry with Kevan for helping orchestrate all that.
granted, she might just be bulshitting Theon, but I kind of... like the idea that Brandon was that kind of guy - it gives a shade of grey to the Starks and casts a new light on Ned's character and his relationship with Robert, I think.
I want both things! (BSing Theon a bit, though I do think she's simultaneously bitter AND in on the Manderly, PLUS Brandon kinda being douchey.) It makes the past more interesting.
lol westeros.org has been FREAKING OUT about Dany/Daario (she's soooooo dumb now!!1 let's take Barristan's assertion that she'd have married Quentyn if he were hotter at face value!!1) that I'm okay with it just on general principle. XD
Also: wasn't Ashara (and Arthur) described as having fair hair earlier in the books?
I thiiiiiink mostly her purple eyes get a lot of attention. And then when Edric Dayne shows up there's some discussion about how a lot of his family members have blonde hair. I totally thought she was a blonde though. You have a lot of fan artists/graphic makers baying for your blood now, GRRM!
lol westeros.org has been FREAKING OUT about Dany/Daario (she's soooooo dumb now!!1 let's take Barristan's assertion that she'd have married Quentyn if he were hotter at face value!!1) that I'm okay with it just on general principle. XD
*facepalm* aaaaahh well, OF COURSE, that goes to balance all the times the male characters have been called out for ~wenching~
...yeah. >.>;
I was hoping more POVs in Essos would be a help, but not really.
Yep, in a way the parts that worked best in this regard were the scenes in the free cities (which are pretty close to Westeros culturally, in a way)and the sellsword companies, but as far as slaver's bay goes, oh boy what a mess.
STOP WITH YOUR MINOR CHARACTERS MAKEOVERS GRRM, DON'T THINK WE DON'T NOTICE
(also lol, I'm sure that Tyrion has resumed his GoT tumbling just because people kept nagging George about it XD)
I have some thoughts of my own, some responses to your stuff, because you basically my only ASOIAF friend. :)
First: my big WHAAAAAAAAAAAT moment in this book, that made me immediately want to get online and talk to you about, but I decided to hold on to see if we found anymore about it first: AERYS/JOANNA??? Lol, I just saw your other post where Tywin fixes on him to kill along with everyone he loves - YEP, that would explain it, along with Tywin's character ever after.
OH. FREY MEAT. Wow, that makes sense, and definitely something I would never have known without fandom. I really liked Lord Manderly, and I was a bit surprised at his deliberate provocation after that, because he seems like he's scheming much bigger things and secretly a much bigger badass - but I guess you're right, he figures he's gotten his biggest revenge possible.
I believe that Aegon is a real Targaryen! Agreeing with your theory that "mummer's" means Varys.
I KNOW, so torn about Kevan's death. :( He did not deserve that, and he was doing such a competent job of ruling and beginning to pull the realm together...such torn feelings about that...
God, Jon had BETTER not go the Varamyr route (but now I'm worried about that, since that guy was given SUCH a long intro in the prologue, ugh, it went on forever and he was a gross character and I just wanted him to hurry up and die like I knew he would so we could get to everyone we knew). I'm guessing Melisandre's going to be the one to save his life, then he'll be extra-indebted to her. Man, what's going to happen to the Night's Watch, though.... Tormund is not only the best wildling, but possibly the best character around the Wall right now. Maybe he can be the next Lord Commander...except I don't want him to die. He is suddenly one of those characters that GIVE ME THE ENDURANCE AND WILL-POWER TO GO ON. It's his incredible resilience in face of everything that's happened to him and the threat of the Others...which makes it even more likely Martin will kill him off. :( Obviously now, too, if he and a big company of wildlings leave on the rescue mission, no way whoever's in charge of the Wall is going to let them back through....
I seriously had this point halfway through where I was like JON, YOU SERIOUSLY NEED MORE ALLIES, LIKE RIGHT NOW WOULD BE GOOD
And Queen Selys is so gross, ugh, I kind of want her to get bitchslapped for all her presumption with Val. Who is also badass.
I'm going to write some in my entry about Quentyn, Jon, Dany, and DESTINY, how big of a part it plays in who Martin kills. But yeah, I knew from Quentyn's first chapter that there was no way he'd have a big role, unless he had a TREMENDOUS life-changing experience. Sadly...he did not come back from being set on fire.
Re: Cersei's walk of shame - you know, as Martin's revenges go - especially considering what happened to Theon, who killed just about as many people and far less heartlessly, I think - that was not so bad. Not even all of what she had coming. And I just can't wait to see Tyrion's face when he finds out about it.
I am very suspicious of Ramsay's letter too...at least we know he didn't get back Theon and Jeyne. Just the suggestion of what he might do with Selyse, Shireen, Val, and the baby, though...gives me nightmares. D: I hope they get Mance back.
HMMM, I hadn't considered the miscarriage possibly with Dany having cramps and bleeding...I am not so sure.
I was really surprised by Melisandre's POV! She's much more likeable this way, when we see her doubts and her uncertainties. It was also a big relief that she burned Rattleshirt and not Mance.
HOW MUCH DO I HATE VICTARION? A LOT. I MEAN A WHOLE LOT.
Okay, I'll be copy/pasting this into an entry and then writing more. :)
Oops, I have no ASOIAF icons on DW...
Aerys/Joanna has been floating around in fandom for quite a while, so in a way it came as more of a confirmation than a surprise, though I can't remember whether there were other hints in canon or it was just a byproduct of the "Tyrion is a secret Targ" theory - though if one follows the way it's been told in ADwD, it almost points more toward the twins being secret Targs... but tbh I kind of hope we're done with Targs popping out here and there. Like, my favorite outcome in case Aegon really ends up on the throne is that he is not a Targaryen but just some random kid (maybe - gasp! - common born) who has been properly educated into becoming a good ruler. It would be great if ASoIaF ended up subverting the whole notion that it's your blood that makes you fit to rule. Also because if George wanted to stick with that trope, I'd rather have Dany end up on the throne.
In spite of the fact that I don't think she's a good person (though I think she's a good character - possibly in my top ten favorite), I was always uncomfortable with Cersei experiencing humiliation, no matter how much she needed to LOOK AT HER LIFE, LOOK AT HER CHOICES. For some reason the way she's brought down is always realistic and hits close to home (oh god, the scene with Osney in AFfC *cringes*) - the shearing itself, there's a history to it that ended (?) not too long ago. I think men were often punished in more violent ways, but it's striking how women will always be more likely to be punished through public shame. Cersei's walk comes with all that baggage and that makes it a difficult read, I think - I was on the verge of tears through most of the chapter, ngl. Theon's "karmic" punishment was horrific and disproportionate to his crimes, but it was also more like horror movie material? Whereas Cersei's is very gendered and horribly accurate in its description of finger-pointing mob mentality. I've read an interpretation that this is GRRM pointing out fandom's own tendency to pile up on Cersei and female characters in a similar fashion (there is a reason if westeros.org had to put up a specific rule that says it's forbidden to wish rape on the characters), and make the reader experience it from the inside, and I kind of want to adopt this angle... but it's always hard for me to tell where GRRM's authorial intent re: Cersei goes, at times I think he writes in a genuinely sympathetic, hero-of-her-own-story way, other times you get the feeling that the narrative is making fun of her. LOL THOUGHTS ABOUT CERSEI IS MY OWN THOUGHTS ON YAOI
What's fishy about Dany's surprise!period, imo, is that she can't really recall the last time the red tide came (and I think it's implied that, thinking herself barren, she didn't really take precautions with Daario). And then someone pointed at Mirri's prophecy - if we read it as the sun=Quentyn (there's even Illyrio's remark about Westerosi lords believing they *are* what's on their sigils), well, he was born in the west and died east... Now I can't recall the interpretation in its entirety but they had found similar correspondences for other bits of the prophecy, the bottom line being that when everything adds up she will be able to have children again. Of course it's just speculation though.
I really don't think any of the Lannisters are Targaryens...they're all entirely too Lannister. :) Okay, the idea of Tyrion being one was intriguing to me just now for all of two seconds (seriously, out of the fandom, this is the first time I've had it suggested to me), but no. Even if he was born as a "monster," etc. Again, too much of a Lannister, and I like Genna Lannister's interpretation that Tyrion is the most like his father. Who is Tywin.
Ooh, it would be hilarious if Aegon ends up on the throne and then turns out to be a random commoner - very subversive, indeed. But I want it to be ultimately Dany.
Hmmm, I hadn't thought of Cersei's humiliation in the wider gender-history sense, and you're right, that is a good deal more uncomfortable. I'd like to believe Martin is pointing that out, ESPECIALLY fandom's horribly unbalanced scorn for female characters.
What's fishy about Dany's surprise!period, imo, is that she can't really recall the last time the red tide came
Yeah, I noticed that too. I also wondered if she'd gotten any periods at all since she lost Rhaego, but I guess she has. And yeah, it could have been Daario's, or Hizdahr's, since they consummated the marriage...but I guess that would have been too soon.
OOH, extremely interesting interpretation of "when the sun rises in the west and dies in the east!" I will have serious respect for Martin (but then, I always do, for a ton of tiny details like that, as well as for resurrecting Aegon) if that ends up being the case. Oh, Quentyn, you did have a purpose after all. :) (I feel so sorry for Doran, though, when he finds out...)